Episode 7

full
Published on:

14th Dec 2023

How To Find, Hire & Retain Great Architectural Staff with Stephen Drew | 007

Jon talks to Stephen Drew, the founder of Architecture Social and Interior Design Social, about the challenges of finding, hiring, and retaining great architectural staff. Stephen enlightens listeners about the importance of creating engaging job adverts that go beyond listing required skills, and instead paint a vibrant picture of the company culture. He advises businesses to be agile, and transparent about their financial situation, and to constantly engage with employees about their professional goals. Stephen encourages companies to think from an employee's perspective and leverage their unique strengths, like flexibility and opportunities for more hands-on experience, which are particularly attractive to candidates. He also highlights the cost-saving advantage of employee referrals and the importance of fostering relationships with local universities for potential new hires.

Today's Guest...

Stephen Drew is the Founder of the Architecture Social and Interior Design Social as well as an ambassador for the Architect's Benevolent Society, a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts, and a professional member of the Recruitment Employment Confederation and the Association Of Professional Staffing Companies. Architecture Social has a fresh spin on an old formula by breaking down traditional barriers between companies and creatives, providing a supportive environment to develop professional skills, find new jobs, and socialise.

Episode Highlights...

00:00 Introduction and Podcast Overview

00:57 Guest Introduction: Stephen Drew

01:40 Personal Interactions and Casual Conversation

03:31 Stephen Drew's Journey into Recruitment

05:46 Challenges and Solutions in Recruitment

08:22 Mistakes Employers Make in Recruitment

08:35 Effective Job Advertisements and Hiring Strategies

15:18 The Importance of Respect and Communication in Hiring

19:00 Salary Transparency in Job Advertisements

21:46 Understanding the Market and Setting Salaries

22:38 Balancing Business Needs and Employee Expectations

23:29 The Importance of Flexibility and Progression in Retaining Staff

25:32 The Art of Negotiation and Counter Offers

28:40 The Role of Flexibility and Experience in Attracting Candidates

31:49 Advice for Sole Practitioners on Their First Hire

34:18 The Importance of Practice and Comparison in the Hiring Process

34:42 Closing Thoughts and Personal Reflections

Key Takeaways...

👉 Putting thought into the job description and the portrayal of your firm can significantly impact the number of quality candidates you attract.

👉 Be clear about your expectations and honest about what you can offer. Create clear goals for potential hires to work towards and be open about salary discussions.

👉 Ensure that you're ready to make a decision when you start the interview process.

👉 Employees need to feel that they can progress in their roles and that their concerns are being listened to.

👉 Flexibility is vital in current times, so allowing options like remote working can contribute greatly to job satisfaction and staff retention.

👉 When it comes to sole practitioners hiring their first team member, taking the time to establish connections with universities and job boards can open up a pool of eligible candidates.

👉 Avoid rushing the hiring process to ensure you find the right fit for your practice.

👉 Your job ads should focus on selling your firm as a great place to work rather than just listing what you want in an employee. Be upfront about both your expectations and what you're offering.

👉 Mention the benefits that you offer, like flexibility and opportunities for professional development to make your firm more appealing to potential hires.

👉 Staying engaged with your staff, setting clear goals for them, and providing them with opportunities to learn and grow can help keep them motivated and loyal to your firm.

👉 Be open about salary conversations and be agile to adapt your strategies based on the current market conditions.

Links Mentioned In The Episode...

Phone Architecture Social

+442077709572

WhatsApp Architecture Social

https://api.whatsapp.com/send?phone=442077709572&text=

Email Architecture Social

hello@architecturesocial.com

LinkedIn

https://www.linkedin.com/company/68186745/

Instagram

https://architecturesocial.com/instagram

YouTube

https://architecturesocial.com/youtube

Twitch

http://www.architecturesocial.com/twitch

TikTok

https://architecturesocial.com/tiktok

Twitter

https://architecturesocial.com/twitter/

Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/architecturesocial

Pinterest

https://architecturesocial.com/pinterest

Spotify

https://open.spotify.com/show/3A7qs5ZHq8oX3IU9BcqZeS

Discord

https://www.architecturesocial.com/discord

What To Do Next...

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In The Next Episode...

Next time Jon takes a trip down memory lane and shares a lighthearted look at his Christmas past, present, and future working in architecture.

Transcript
Jon Clayton:

Finding good architectural staff can be tricky.

Jon Clayton:

And once you found them, how do you hang on to them?

Jon Clayton:

That's what I'm discussing with Stephen drew and this episode

Jon Clayton:

of architecture business club.

Jon Clayton:

The weekly podcast for solo and small firm architecture practice owners,

Jon Clayton:

just like you who want to build a profitable future-proof architecture

Jon Clayton:

business that fits around their life.

Jon Clayton:

I'm the host, John Clayton.

Jon Clayton:

If you want to get notified, when I release a new episode and get access

Jon Clayton:

to free resources and exclusive offers.

Jon Clayton:

Then go to Mr.

Jon Clayton:

John clayton.co.uk forward slash ABC.

Jon Clayton:

And sign up to my free weekly email newsletter.

Jon Clayton:

Now let's discuss.

Jon Clayton:

Uh, finding, hiring and retaining great architectural staff.

Jon Clayton:

Stephen Drew is the founder of the Architecture Social and Interior Design

Jon Clayton:

Social, as well as an ambassador for the Architects Benevolent Society, a

Jon Clayton:

fellow of the Royal Society of Arts, and a professional member of the

Jon Clayton:

Recruitment Employment Confederation.

Jon Clayton:

and the Association of Professional Staffing Companies.

Jon Clayton:

Architecture Social has a fresh spin on an old formula by breaking down

Jon Clayton:

traditional barriers between companies and creatives, providing a supportive

Jon Clayton:

environment to develop professional skills, find new jobs and socialize.

Jon Clayton:

You can learn more about Architecture Social and connect

Jon Clayton:

with Stephen via architectursocial.

Jon Clayton:

com.

Jon Clayton:

Stephen, welcome to Architecture Business Club.

Stephen Drew:

Wow, it's, it's been so good to meet you in person in London.

Stephen Drew:

So it's quite a nice thing post, post pandemic to meet in person.

Stephen Drew:

And I'm very happy to be here.

Stephen Drew:

And my, my, my, I'm just going to say that long list of all those titles.

Stephen Drew:

I, I, I do feel like I must have a massive, fragile ego, but well

Stephen Drew:

done for reading them all out.

Stephen Drew:

Thank you.

Jon Clayton:

Oh, you're very welcome.

Jon Clayton:

I mean...

Jon Clayton:

That wasn't even the full list.

Jon Clayton:

I mean, I could have probably gone on for a few minutes,

Stephen Drew:

I'm compensating for some other inadequacies I have,

Stephen Drew:

you know, but anyways, I digress.

Stephen Drew:

I don't want to interrupt the podcast.

Stephen Drew:

It's good to be here.

Jon Clayton:

We don't want to talk about your inadequacies for

Jon Clayton:

the duration of the interview.

Jon Clayton:

So let's skip on from that One thing I did want to say though is I know

Jon Clayton:

before we get stuck into the topic We're going to talk about today.

Jon Clayton:

I know you're a dog lover, aren't you?

Jon Clayton:

I remember when we spoke you were telling me about your Boston Terrier.

Jon Clayton:

Is that

Stephen Drew:

right.

Stephen Drew:

Dexter is

Jon Clayton:

Tell us about Dexter

Stephen Drew:

he's a very cheeky chaff, you know, um,

Stephen Drew:

he's very lovable, hyperactive.

Stephen Drew:

Uh, quite a crazy dog.

Stephen Drew:

Um, uh, but an amazing dog, as they all are.

Stephen Drew:

But, uh, I, I, well, I don't have a child myself.

Stephen Drew:

You know, you, you pick up your, your, um, your puppy, don't you?

Stephen Drew:

And, and, you just, you just don't know what they're gonna be like.

Stephen Drew:

And, if anything, Dex has turned out to be a bit like me.

Stephen Drew:

Stubborn, loving, kind of one track minded, thinks

Stephen Drew:

about the ball all the time.

Stephen Drew:

There you go, I do love him.

Stephen Drew:

He's an amazing dog!

Stephen Drew:

Ha

Jon Clayton:

they do say they take after their owners, don't

Stephen Drew:

ha!

Jon Clayton:

don't know what that says about me and our dog because

Jon Clayton:

our dog is a bit nuts as well.

Jon Clayton:

Um, so today we're going to talk about finding, hiring and

Jon Clayton:

retaining great architectural staff.

Stephen Drew:

Yep.

Jon Clayton:

So maybe you could start by just telling me the story of, of

Jon Clayton:

how you got into recruitment and what led to forming Architecture Social.

Stephen Drew:

Well, that's right.

Stephen Drew:

So I studied architecture.

Stephen Drew:

I did five years of it and no one in their right mind who's, who's any form has, has

Stephen Drew:

any form of sanity thinks I'm going to go into a sales role, you know, no way.

Stephen Drew:

You don't do all that to do that.

Stephen Drew:

It's crazy.

Stephen Drew:

I just kind of fell into it.

Stephen Drew:

And anyone that says they plan to go on recruitment is absolutely full

Stephen Drew:

of it because you just fall into it.

Stephen Drew:

It's no one's first choice.

Stephen Drew:

I just, at the time I didn't want to get fully qualified.

Stephen Drew:

I didn't maybe have certain excitements that my other colleagues who were

Stephen Drew:

studying to become architecture did.

Stephen Drew:

I love the 3D modeling.

Stephen Drew:

I wasn't sure I was so interested in perhaps some of the technical detailing.

Stephen Drew:

And I just thought, you know what, I'm going to find out what else is there.

Stephen Drew:

And the first place I walked into, they were like, Hey, you, you're good

Stephen Drew:

at chatting, why don't you do this?

Stephen Drew:

And that's the kind of the quick version.

Stephen Drew:

So yes, you're right.

Stephen Drew:

I did architecture.

Stephen Drew:

I worked in industry for three years.

Stephen Drew:

I worked alongside technologists, alongside architects, um.

Stephen Drew:

Then went into recruitment and I've helped architectural practices, small,

Stephen Drew:

medium, and large, probably for the last 10 years of recruitment, I then

Stephen Drew:

set up the architecture social, which is a bit of an online platform does a few

Stephen Drew:

different things as well, and still does recruitment, but the important bit as

Stephen Drew:

well as I returned to the architectural practice where I left before and they

Stephen Drew:

fell into recruitment, I returned to help them on their hiring strategy.

Stephen Drew:

So all the secrets that I've learned from.

Stephen Drew:

Being the hiring manager, being the recruitment consultant

Stephen Drew:

and also being the candidate.

Stephen Drew:

So I've seen every step and I'm more than happy to give any business owners

Stephen Drew:

here in the business club insights, save money, make recruitment less

Stephen Drew:

stressful because let's be honest, it's a pain in the ass for everyone.

Stephen Drew:

It's difficult.

Stephen Drew:

It's a people process.

Stephen Drew:

So I'm all, I'm all yours, but that's the content.

Stephen Drew:

Uh, that's the context of what I've done.

Stephen Drew:

Hopefully it's useful.

Jon Clayton:

That's brilliant.

Jon Clayton:

You summed it up perfectly.

Jon Clayton:

Um, okay, so what, what common problems do you see employers encounter when it

Jon Clayton:

comes specifically to finding staff?

Stephen Drew:

Oh, it's just, there's, there, there's, there is, there

Stephen Drew:

isn't really a book on it, right?

Stephen Drew:

And if there was, the book is usually rubbish in recruitment, right?

Stephen Drew:

And therefore, again, it goes back to where I said, it's

Stephen Drew:

a very humanistic process.

Stephen Drew:

Things can go wrong for a difficult reason.

Stephen Drew:

A few, many different reasons.

Stephen Drew:

You know, recruitment is expensive.

Stephen Drew:

Stop.

Stephen Drew:

Okay.

Stephen Drew:

It's a time sink.

Stephen Drew:

You're going to be interviewing people.

Stephen Drew:

You can waste time.

Stephen Drew:

People can join, they can leave.

Stephen Drew:

Okay.

Stephen Drew:

And then if you, so that costs you money, cause it's basically time

Stephen Drew:

that you're not doing that stuff.

Stephen Drew:

And then when you use a recruitment consultant, which really is saving

Stephen Drew:

you time in theory, not always.

Stephen Drew:

Then for that recruitment consultant will charge you money.

Stephen Drew:

So.

Stephen Drew:

You know, there's, there's, it's like, ah, you, you, you, you're

Stephen Drew:

damned if you do damned if you don't.

Stephen Drew:

And then also there's certain hiring practices that you can do direct, such

Stephen Drew:

as job advertisements and all this stuff.

Stephen Drew:

And it's questionable how effective they are as well.

Stephen Drew:

And, uh, job boards used to be such a huge, big thing.

Stephen Drew:

Part of it, that the old architecture magazine used to come around the Arctic's

Stephen Drew:

journal PD for jobs and all this stuff.

Stephen Drew:

And they would have.

Stephen Drew:

All the classifieds at the back, not dodgy ones.

Stephen Drew:

You know what I'm on about?

Stephen Drew:

But like they would be one saying we're looking for a technologist, whatever.

Stephen Drew:

Right.

Stephen Drew:

And that's all changed.

Stephen Drew:

The land, the, the, the landscape's changed and I think it's quite

Stephen Drew:

exciting at the moment, LinkedIn.

Stephen Drew:

Social media, these platforms, these can all be utilized really

Stephen Drew:

well to save you a lot of money and time and stress by starting to

Stephen Drew:

have inbound people of interest.

Stephen Drew:

And that basically is effectively like online marketing, you know,

Stephen Drew:

but it takes time and it's, and if you want immediate results.

Stephen Drew:

Investing in your market is not going to get stuff immediately, maybe if

Stephen Drew:

you're lucky, however, we have to constantly think about what we're doing.

Stephen Drew:

So I'm more than happy to let you to answer any questions on

Stephen Drew:

recruitment strategies to save cash.

Stephen Drew:

Hopefully.

Jon Clayton:

I love that, before we move on to that, you've just reminded

Jon Clayton:

me that, that when the BD used to come through, that used to be the thing that

Jon Clayton:

everyone in the office used to do when I worked in practice, the first page that

Jon Clayton:

they would go to and flick through to the jobs page and like, Oh, have a look

Jon Clayton:

at what salaries are on offer there.

Jon Clayton:

That used to be the first thing that most people used to do.

Jon Clayton:

But as you say that it's, it's totally changed now, hasn't it?

Jon Clayton:

The way that people find stuff and the options that are out there for us.

Jon Clayton:

What about mistakes though?

Jon Clayton:

Do you, are there any kind of typical mistakes that you see employers making

Jon Clayton:

as part of that recruitment process?

Jon Clayton:

There must be some common things that you've seen and thought, Oh.

Jon Clayton:

Not again.

Stephen Drew:

Yeah, the, the, the big, the biggest one is that the one that

Stephen Drew:

comes to mind anyways, there's quite a few, uh, one that comes to mind is job

Stephen Drew:

advertisements are typically very bad.

Stephen Drew:

If they're advertised at all.

Stephen Drew:

So number one mistake is not advertising your vacancy and 70 percent

Stephen Drew:

of vacancies are not advertised.

Stephen Drew:

It's uh, quite quite big when you think about it And so the first thing

Stephen Drew:

you should you should actually get the vacancy on the website, right?

Stephen Drew:

It sounds so silly but trust me i've been there myself where I preach this

Stephen Drew:

to companies and then i'm hiring and i'm like I didn't put my job ad so

Stephen Drew:

we all do it We all get busy, but I think it's really important to get

Stephen Drew:

that job vacancy on because people are not mind readers and and maybe

Stephen Drew:

if you're uh, fosters and partners, right you got your famous Infamous

Stephen Drew:

maybe, but you're definitely famous.

Stephen Drew:

And what that means is a lot of applications are going to be coming in

Stephen Drew:

for architects, architectural assistants.

Stephen Drew:

But if you're a small business owner at the start of your journey.

Stephen Drew:

No, not everyone's going to know who you are.

Stephen Drew:

It's a big wide world.

Stephen Drew:

So you've got to think like, how am I bleeding the noise?

Stephen Drew:

How am I going to get out there now, before we talk about ways to go about

Stephen Drew:

things, and I'm happy to go into that and we'll go through that in a bit.

Stephen Drew:

The next biggest mistake is you've got to advertise your role, but that usually the

Stephen Drew:

job descriptions are written quite badly.

Stephen Drew:

Um, what do I mean by this?

Stephen Drew:

Well, if you close your eyes and you imagine a job description, they

Stephen Drew:

usually start something like we are looking for a senior architect must

Stephen Drew:

have 10 years experience with Revit must have eight years experience on,

Stephen Drew:

you know, I in residential projects must have this must have MBS chorus

Stephen Drew:

must have this must do this must of that must, must, must, must, must.

Stephen Drew:

And what that is actually is, is it's.

Stephen Drew:

What's I call a top down approach.

Stephen Drew:

You must have this.

Stephen Drew:

I am looking for this.

Stephen Drew:

And when people read that, if they're desperate for a job, they're

Stephen Drew:

going to click and go through, or sometimes people don't even read it.

Stephen Drew:

They click.

Stephen Drew:

There might be an IT architect for all they think, or they think a

Stephen Drew:

technologist is something else, or as a receptionist might spam it, right?

Stephen Drew:

Whatever.

Stephen Drew:

But you might have some person there that reads it and goes,

Stephen Drew:

Oh, I only have four years Revit.

Stephen Drew:

I don't have five.

Stephen Drew:

And they move on and therefore you exclude people.

Stephen Drew:

But also when you're trying to get people for a job, you've

Stephen Drew:

got to think about when you were looking for a job and in the past.

Stephen Drew:

Even if you're the business owner now, try to think back in the past.

Stephen Drew:

And you've really got to tap into where people are in their lives and what and

Stephen Drew:

where your company can fit in with that.

Stephen Drew:

And don't use caveat words which mean nothing, like always makes

Stephen Drew:

me laugh, an exciting opportunity.

Stephen Drew:

I mean, what the heck does that mean?

Stephen Drew:

A close knit team.

Stephen Drew:

Oh goodness me, gracious me.

Stephen Drew:

We were talking before, weren't we, about where you worked in Australia.

Stephen Drew:

It was a fun environment where people could come and go.

Stephen Drew:

They worked hard, played hard.

Stephen Drew:

It was social.

Stephen Drew:

You had barbecues on the first day and all that stuff.

Stephen Drew:

You said on the first day you came down, it was a whole big event.

Stephen Drew:

You've got to paint this picture in the culture.

Stephen Drew:

Like EPR Architects where I worked.

Stephen Drew:

Um, they do yoga twice a week.

Stephen Drew:

They're a great company.

Stephen Drew:

Just moved into a new office, an amazing practice where they converted

Stephen Drew:

an old school into a beautiful setting.

Stephen Drew:

Okay.

Stephen Drew:

They do social events.

Stephen Drew:

They do training.

Stephen Drew:

There's a mentoring scheme.

Stephen Drew:

There's Revit training, all this stuff.

Stephen Drew:

Okay.

Stephen Drew:

Now, when I'm telling you about that, you're thinking about how that

Stephen Drew:

fits in for you, you're imagining your life as the candidate, you're

Stephen Drew:

starting to visualize yourself then.

Stephen Drew:

Which is great because that means if you're a good architect, maybe

Stephen Drew:

you're more likely to apply.

Stephen Drew:

Whereas the other ads that I saw at the start, that I've talked about at

Stephen Drew:

the start, must have 10 years rebit.

Stephen Drew:

I'm not that interested.

Stephen Drew:

I can't imagine myself being there.

Stephen Drew:

So that's the number one mistake that I see, John.

Jon Clayton:

That's really interesting actually that the example that you

Jon Clayton:

gave of the kind of bad ads there, that's so typical of so many job ads

Jon Clayton:

that you see generally, not just within architecture, that it's very much about

Jon Clayton:

the employer just listing out their dream list of, of what they want from

Jon Clayton:

the candidate and not actually thinking.

Jon Clayton:

How can we position ourselves as amazing employers so that

Jon Clayton:

we attract the best candidates?

Stephen Drew:

Yeah, exactly.

Stephen Drew:

Or it's an advert or it's a, it's like getting your message out there.

Stephen Drew:

I mean, the other thing people don't really think about, and I get it

Stephen Drew:

because you're stressed in an interview, you're doing all this stuff, but it's

Stephen Drew:

actually a chance for you to sell the company or paint a great picture

Stephen Drew:

of it and build up that public pres, uh, present the public image, right?

Stephen Drew:

And what I mean by that is.

Stephen Drew:

You may not even hire the person, but if you're nice to them, you

Stephen Drew:

show them around a bit, and then you let them down late, gently, maybe

Stephen Drew:

they go away and go, I didn't get it, but it was a really nice place.

Stephen Drew:

Okay, that's one version, whereas if you tear someone, uh, a new, a new, I

Stephen Drew:

was going to swear then, but it's not my podcast, but if you tear it into

Stephen Drew:

someone, they're going to remember, aren't they go, I went in that place

Stephen Drew:

and this guy just grilled me, absolutely grilled me, or I was there and we

Stephen Drew:

were in the evening quite late and the interview went on for two hours and

Stephen Drew:

it was just this lady ripping into me and everyone was still working there.

Stephen Drew:

That's not a good presentation.

Stephen Drew:

So you need to really think about what how people see it and people talk online

Stephen Drew:

and glass doors there Although i've got mixed things at the moment You don't know

Stephen Drew:

how I feel about glass door because i'm aware of some companies paying to remove

Stephen Drew:

reviews So i'm not too worried about glass doors, but you think about your

Stephen Drew:

mates who you speak to They all say who they've interviewed with what it was like

Stephen Drew:

what they've heard and you need to be on top of that If you want the best people

Jon Clayton:

So, okay, so let's assume that there's a small practice out there

Jon Clayton:

that's,

Stephen Drew:

Yep

Jon Clayton:

support.

Jon Clayton:

They need some architectural, an additional architectural staff member.

Jon Clayton:

So, They've taken your advice and they've done a red hot job ad that's

Jon Clayton:

kind of really selling selling them as an employer How fantastic that they

Jon Clayton:

are and what the culture would be like there So maybe they get to the stage

Jon Clayton:

then of interviewing some people and have someone they want to hire Is there

Jon Clayton:

a what would be the kind of next common?

Jon Clayton:

Stumbling block is there Any of the common mistakes you see when it comes

Jon Clayton:

to that part of the actual actually kind of offering somebody the job and

Jon Clayton:

and hiring them once you've actually attracted those candidates with that

Jon Clayton:

ads, are there any other common issues that you've seen occur once it gets to

Jon Clayton:

the point of hiring the staff member?

Stephen Drew:

Yeah, good question.

Stephen Drew:

I think, so, a little bit of building on what I said before, you have to remember

Stephen Drew:

that you need to potentially charm someone, and if you're giving someone a

Stephen Drew:

hard time and then you make an offer to them, and the other place up the road is

Stephen Drew:

on equal powering, and they've been quite charming, Who do you think the person's

Stephen Drew:

more likely going to gravitate towards?

Stephen Drew:

Right?

Stephen Drew:

So you need to think about this commercially and you need to think

Stephen Drew:

about optimizing your position as soon as, as best as possible.

Stephen Drew:

So I think the number one thing is just to treat people with respect.

Stephen Drew:

And also remember that.

Stephen Drew:

It's a person that's looking for a job.

Stephen Drew:

They won't wait around for you forever.

Stephen Drew:

That's a big one that I see happening in recruitment.

Stephen Drew:

Yes.

Stephen Drew:

Projects, and it's difficult when you first hire, especially timing,

Stephen Drew:

do I make the jump, all this stuff.

Stephen Drew:

However, you need to understand and have clear communication with that person.

Stephen Drew:

So there's an expression in sales called time kills deals.

Stephen Drew:

And I think that applies to recruitment.

Stephen Drew:

Okay.

Stephen Drew:

Maybe it's not a deal per se.

Stephen Drew:

However, it's like anything, the longer it goes, the more variables

Stephen Drew:

that happen and you need to be on top of that as soon as possible.

Stephen Drew:

And so I think, uh, one of the companies that I used to work with was very good

Stephen Drew:

at meeting people as quick as possible.

Stephen Drew:

That's number one, because there's a chance that they're

Stephen Drew:

the first person you see.

Stephen Drew:

They, they, you're the first, you're the first person they see.

Stephen Drew:

And, um, You can snap them off the market.

Stephen Drew:

So meeting people, I think as soon as possible is great with the

Stephen Drew:

caveat though, that you've got to be prepared to make the decision.

Stephen Drew:

There's absolutely no point interviewing people unless you don't want to hire

Stephen Drew:

someone, unless you middle management that wants to look busy, but this

Stephen Drew:

isn't what the business club is about.

Stephen Drew:

We're all busy people.

Stephen Drew:

I'm the same.

Stephen Drew:

I've got a business.

Stephen Drew:

I got five staff.

Stephen Drew:

If I'm interviewing, I'm interviewing and I'm ready to make an offer and you've

Stephen Drew:

got to be ready and you're going to be reactive and you can't faff around.

Stephen Drew:

You've got to just be to the point, clear, concise, and stick with your words.

Stephen Drew:

And.

Stephen Drew:

If you say you can offer a salary offer the salary be honest about where

Stephen Drew:

you are as well The other thing is you mentioned maybe some people get

Stephen Drew:

things get competitive and stuff.

Stephen Drew:

Let's pretend you're a small business You can't compete so much on the salary

Stephen Drew:

think about flexibility People are always looking for more flexibility

Stephen Drew:

and you need to keep that in mind and that could be a quite nice caveat

Stephen Drew:

where you Know you say listen Okay.

Stephen Drew:

We're a smaller practice.

Stephen Drew:

The salary is this.

Stephen Drew:

However, when I'm prepared, I'm very happy for you to do the school run.

Stephen Drew:

I'm very happy for you to work two days at home.

Stephen Drew:

And there's ways that you can shimmy it around, but you

Stephen Drew:

remember it's a conversation.

Stephen Drew:

Remember it's moving parts and you need to be fluid.

Stephen Drew:

And I think that the companies, and this usually happens when they get bigger.

Stephen Drew:

So if we're any small to medium companies right now, it's not something

Stephen Drew:

you don't need to worry about.

Stephen Drew:

But when you get bigger, you can sometimes get structure.

Stephen Drew:

You know, Oh, we can't do this.

Stephen Drew:

Or, Oh, we've got to kick it up to, to HR, who is going to review

Stephen Drew:

that change in the contract.

Stephen Drew:

We've got to get improved by six people.

Stephen Drew:

And that's where you can lose the opportunity.

Stephen Drew:

You can lose the deal, whatever you want to explain it.

Stephen Drew:

So that's what I would say when you're small, be agile, remember, it's a

Stephen Drew:

conversation, put your money with them, put your money where the mouth is.

Stephen Drew:

I think that's what the saying is, but.

Stephen Drew:

Be clear, concise and don't F around.

Stephen Drew:

Sorry, I wasn't sure if I can swear or not.

Jon Clayton:

It's okay.

Jon Clayton:

Um, that that's that's brilliant advice, though, and there was.

Jon Clayton:

One thing I just wanted to pick up on there, just regarding, salary really, and

Jon Clayton:

how you often see job ads out there that are very vague on the matter of salary.

Jon Clayton:

What's your thoughts on that, about, how upfront people, employers

Jon Clayton:

should be when they're advertising architectural posts about salary?

Jon Clayton:

Remember, don't forget to subscribe to my free weekly email newsletter.

Jon Clayton:

You can do that at mrjonclayton.co.uk/abc.

Jon Clayton:

And if you are enjoying this episode then please visit podchaser.com,

Jon Clayton:

search for Architecture Business Club and leave a five star review.

Jon Clayton:

Now, back to the show.

Stephen Drew:

tricky question.

Stephen Drew:

Cause very spicy territory right now.

Stephen Drew:

And I do not think that the RAB a salary guide is good.

Stephen Drew:

Oh, public, um, that's the first time I've probably said that

Stephen Drew:

publicly and it's not good.

Stephen Drew:

And I tell you why I don't think it's good.

Stephen Drew:

The architecture socializer salary guide, but other people

Stephen Drew:

have a salary guide as well.

Stephen Drew:

You need to weigh them all up.

Stephen Drew:

The reason why I don't think that the RIBA salary guide is a good salary

Stephen Drew:

guide for businesses is that they do get the information, but by the time the

Stephen Drew:

report comes out, it's nine months old.

Stephen Drew:

That's an eternity.

Stephen Drew:

In this world, it's a crazy time period.

Stephen Drew:

It's like, oh, that's, let's make a business decision about 2022s information.

Stephen Drew:

You just don't do that.

Stephen Drew:

And so you need up to date information.

Stephen Drew:

However, I'm going to let you into a secret.

Stephen Drew:

Okay.

Stephen Drew:

I I've got the architecture, social salary guide, and this interactive.

Stephen Drew:

Results so people can put information and that skews it a little bit But all

Stephen Drew:

these recruitment consultants out there including mine and i've worked in like

Stephen Drew:

three or four with them and stuff All these salary guys are finger in the air.

Stephen Drew:

Does this seem right?

Stephen Drew:

Okay, and the small the low medium the high brackets are there for a reason

Stephen Drew:

because There isn't a magic number.

Stephen Drew:

And I saw a report come out by an article lately of a part one in London,

Stephen Drew:

like process and partners on 31 K.

Stephen Drew:

I'm not sure that's still right.

Stephen Drew:

Okay.

Stephen Drew:

I'm not convinced.

Stephen Drew:

I'm not convinced.

Stephen Drew:

I'm just not convinced.

Stephen Drew:

So.

Stephen Drew:

Different companies have different salaries and you will tie yourself up

Stephen Drew:

in knots if you look at all the stuff out there and think that it is accurate.

Stephen Drew:

At the same time though, don't be naive.

Stephen Drew:

So there's a company in Manchester, quite a famous architecture practice,

Stephen Drew:

which always used to make me laugh.

Stephen Drew:

Because they used to try and put the London salaries, the same

Stephen Drew:

as the Manchester salaries and the living costs were different.

Stephen Drew:

Um, so where I'm going with this is you have to be receptive

Stephen Drew:

to the environment you are.

Stephen Drew:

And the quickest way to find out salaries is to compete in a marketplace.

Stephen Drew:

And what do I mean by that?

Stephen Drew:

What I mean is if you see an awesome guy or gal who is an architect looking

Stephen Drew:

for 36 and you want to go 35, you've got to be prepared to lose them.

Stephen Drew:

You might win them over, but you might lose them to someone else.

Stephen Drew:

And that is the harsh way you learn about moving salaries.

Stephen Drew:

So you'd be a bit agile.

Stephen Drew:

And, uh, you know, challenge it as well.

Stephen Drew:

It can go the other way that way.

Stephen Drew:

Of course, you shouldn't just hire someone on their expectations

Stephen Drew:

if they can't deliver because.

Stephen Drew:

Chances are you're going to have to sack them or it's not

Stephen Drew:

going to work or whatever.

Stephen Drew:

So it's a balance.

Stephen Drew:

You've got a bit of common sense, but also listen.

Stephen Drew:

Last thing I'd say on that point is you've got to think about

Stephen Drew:

what's valuable for the business.

Stephen Drew:

Maybe a young architect has got all the Revit skills and that could plug in

Stephen Drew:

and then you've got a senior architect with lots of experience as well.

Stephen Drew:

And you have to factor in everything to the business and architecture

Stephen Drew:

gets a bit strange, doesn't it?

Stephen Drew:

When you get like senior professionals.

Stephen Drew:

Um, The kind of salary dips off to one point, but where am I going with this?

Stephen Drew:

Is that there's no one rule.

Stephen Drew:

There's no one rule.

Stephen Drew:

It's like people say to me about CVs, how many pages are in a CV?

Stephen Drew:

Could be one, could be two, could be three.

Stephen Drew:

And how much should I pay an architect?

Stephen Drew:

Could be 34, could be 36, could be 38.

Stephen Drew:

How good are they?

Stephen Drew:

What value have they got?

Stephen Drew:

How rare are they in your area?

Stephen Drew:

And then on it goes.

Stephen Drew:

Yeah.

Jon Clayton:

topic.

Jon Clayton:

Um, okay.

Jon Clayton:

So if we talked about finding and hiring staff, um, I mean, the

Jon Clayton:

other thing is retaining staff.

Jon Clayton:

I mean, retaining good staff can be an issue for some practices.

Jon Clayton:

So why do you think this is the case?

Jon Clayton:

Well, what do you think that?

Jon Clayton:

Small practice owners and employers can, can do about it

Jon Clayton:

to, to retain their good people.

Stephen Drew:

Yeah, really good question.

Stephen Drew:

I mean, the quickest way to save money on recruitment is keep your staff.

Stephen Drew:

There's a caveat with that though, because of course you have to be, it's cruel to

Stephen Drew:

be kind to business and if they're not the right fit, you have to have a really

Stephen Drew:

difficult conversation with yourself in the ugly mirror about letting them go.

Stephen Drew:

However, you have to, I think generally if you identify a member of staff as

Stephen Drew:

being extremely valuable, then having constant conversations with them about

Stephen Drew:

salaries, about where, where things are good, I can go the other way as well.

Stephen Drew:

Where you go, listen, you want so much value here, which is, I just,

Stephen Drew:

I just have to be really honest about where the business is and

Stephen Drew:

how much money it's been making.

Stephen Drew:

I have that conversation all the time in my business.

Stephen Drew:

And it's quite hilarious how.

Stephen Drew:

If you think about it, how many places have you worked before where they talk,

Stephen Drew:

they don't talk about money and, and I find that dangerous because then

Stephen Drew:

basically people work naively up until the point they get made redundant.

Stephen Drew:

Whereas I think if you're a small business owner, it's very good to be competitive

Stephen Drew:

and be open about the challenges that you've got, because of course

Stephen Drew:

you'd like to hand out huge salaries.

Stephen Drew:

But you have very realistic limitations in the business So I think that's the

Stephen Drew:

first thing because most people leave businesses where they feel like either

Stephen Drew:

there's two reasons Either they feel like they can't progress or they Well, that's

Stephen Drew:

the main reason that they can't progress.

Stephen Drew:

So there's one reason people usually leave.

Stephen Drew:

That's the main reason they can't they

Jon Clayton:

being progressing could be the progression could be,

Jon Clayton:

um, professionally in terms of, um, expanding the knowledge and

Jon Clayton:

getting those new opportunities to kind of progress in that way.

Jon Clayton:

Or it could be a progression in authority and salary

Stephen Drew:

Yeah, exactly.

Stephen Drew:

I guess where I was going around it, and I'll just flesh

Stephen Drew:

out this concept in my head.

Stephen Drew:

Usually, people will do two things when they want to leave.

Stephen Drew:

They'll just leave, or they'll bring it up to you, or, and

Stephen Drew:

then you can talk about it.

Stephen Drew:

Now, Employ, I find it hard, even myself as a business owner, you have

Stephen Drew:

to constantly engage with people.

Stephen Drew:

People need constant reassurance because lots of things are going on.

Stephen Drew:

However, us as business owners, we're busy, right?

Stephen Drew:

But we do need to make a bit of time to catch up with people.

Stephen Drew:

And you do need to make it honest, uh, set goals.

Stephen Drew:

Is the first one.

Stephen Drew:

So what do I mean by this?

Stephen Drew:

I mean that people want to progress and don't just give people a pay rise for

Stephen Drew:

the sake of it, set obstacles that are challenges, obstacles is the wrong word.

Stephen Drew:

Set hurdles.

Stephen Drew:

They have to get over.

Stephen Drew:

And then in return you'll pay them more if you have that conversation I

Stephen Drew:

guarantee you people are more likely to stay more likely to engage if you say

Stephen Drew:

you need to do all this and for that Yet we can look at a salary increase or

Stephen Drew:

yep You'd now become a project architect because you're managing a project whereas

Stephen Drew:

before I was helping you along with it.

Stephen Drew:

Congratulations Doing stuff like that is going to retain people.

Stephen Drew:

Some people are just going to go Some people are going to hand in their notice

Stephen Drew:

and then you've got two choices And one of those is that you let them go Or the

Stephen Drew:

other is you you you try to keep them Which can be quite eventful and hard

Stephen Drew:

work stressful but that's what's called a counter offer now there's some Bullshit

Stephen Drew:

stats going around like on how many people stay after a counter offer Generally,

Stephen Drew:

i've even done a counter offer before where i've stayed i've got a nice pay rise

Stephen Drew:

But counter offers people only stay if things fundamentally change and businesses

Stephen Drew:

tend to whether you like it or not.

Stephen Drew:

And we all need to reflect on this, but we stick with what we're comfortable with.

Stephen Drew:

Oh yeah.

Stephen Drew:

We will move heaven and high water if you stay.

Stephen Drew:

Okay.

Stephen Drew:

I stay.

Stephen Drew:

Two grand extra.

Stephen Drew:

These things don't change.

Stephen Drew:

The person leaves again.

Stephen Drew:

So I think you have to be realistic with that person on what you can do.

Stephen Drew:

But if you have a frank conversation and go, why do you want to go there?

Stephen Drew:

And they go, Oh, you know, I want to go because I'm getting an opportunity

Stephen Drew:

or there's a bit more flexible.

Stephen Drew:

You go, well, why don't you just do that?

Stephen Drew:

Yeah.

Stephen Drew:

You know what I'm like, better the devil you know, if we can make it more

Stephen Drew:

flexible, we can get you the two grand, which you were coming to anyways,

Stephen Drew:

but we can get you the two grand.

Stephen Drew:

If you now do these new responsibilities, so I can put you up to a project

Stephen Drew:

architect, but you got to do it and I'll get you the two grand and we

Stephen Drew:

can also say you'll be flexible.

Stephen Drew:

Do you think that's fair?

Stephen Drew:

And the person might say, yes.

Jon Clayton:

so that sounds like a really great thing that, uh, employers could do.

Jon Clayton:

You mentioned that.

Jon Clayton:

Setting goals for them to work towards to be able to progress and to feel

Jon Clayton:

valued and to, to progress their career and ultimately stay within

Jon Clayton:

that practice without changing jobs and leaving for somewhere else.

Jon Clayton:

Are there any of the simple things that small practice owners can do to just

Jon Clayton:

better look after their staff to, you know, make it a better place to work?

Jon Clayton:

That's

Stephen Drew:

Mmm.

Stephen Drew:

Good question.

Stephen Drew:

I think small practices by nature are more agile, aren't, aren't, aren't they?

Stephen Drew:

Well, we, I have four members of staff, I reckon that's small,

Stephen Drew:

where it can be more agile.

Stephen Drew:

Okay.

Stephen Drew:

We don't have the big, some of the big perks that other places have, um, uh, but

Stephen Drew:

we, we can, we, we have pretty good perks.

Stephen Drew:

Okay.

Stephen Drew:

So where I'm going with this.

Stephen Drew:

Okay.

Stephen Drew:

We might not have private medical care.

Stephen Drew:

However, you might be very flexible and don't underestimate

Stephen Drew:

flexibility after the pandemic.

Stephen Drew:

It really shot, um, uh, it really tore up the rule book in architecture.

Stephen Drew:

And most companies now are trying to go back to a five day week.

Stephen Drew:

They say not, but they are.

Stephen Drew:

And I'm already seeing that in London where some people are working five days a

Stephen Drew:

week, some are working four days a week.

Stephen Drew:

If you're a small business owner, why don't you do flexibility?

Stephen Drew:

I do that with my staff.

Stephen Drew:

I say you can work remote whenever you want.

Stephen Drew:

Of course there's challenges with that.

Stephen Drew:

Do not underestimate how popular that is though.

Stephen Drew:

When people are looking for jobs, the questions they

Stephen Drew:

now ask are, How much money?

Stephen Drew:

What is the job?

Stephen Drew:

Like what, what projects would I be working on?

Stephen Drew:

Um, then what is the flexibility?

Stephen Drew:

And followed by the benefits.

Stephen Drew:

So.

Stephen Drew:

Flexibility is a massive chunk of it, which I think is the easiest

Stephen Drew:

one for small business owners to do.

Stephen Drew:

The other thing is that they get so much experience that they wouldn't get in

Stephen Drew:

an architecture practice, um, which is larger or an architectural, whatever.

Stephen Drew:

Um,

Jon Clayton:

true.

Stephen Drew:

Yeah.

Stephen Drew:

So you've got to really lean into that and just be honest and just say,

Stephen Drew:

listen, the stuff you're going to be learning here, you can actually

Stephen Drew:

apply to your own future business.

Stephen Drew:

For all I care and I'm happy to mentor you happy to do all this stuff.

Stephen Drew:

I'm very happy to be flexible Yes, the salary is not going to be as high as

Stephen Drew:

KPF or Foster's But whatever we're this is what we are and I can offer you this

Stephen Drew:

this lifestyle and you can work down the road in the Huddlesfield or wherever

Stephen Drew:

the heck you are Cardiff for me and have a great life and not commute to London

Stephen Drew:

Tell you what, that's really expensive.

Stephen Drew:

Try living in London try commuting to London It's so you've got to

Stephen Drew:

really identify your strengths and embrace the Things that maybe your

Stephen Drew:

competitors aren't doing And and make that your own and and also embrace The

Stephen Drew:

shortcomings of it, I like hit it head on and go, yes, I can't offer you the

Stephen Drew:

salary and architecture practice done.

Stephen Drew:

So you're already taking out the thing going.

Stephen Drew:

Yes.

Stephen Drew:

However, flexibility, however, project running.

Jon Clayton:

But as you say, though, that those, there's a

Jon Clayton:

couple of other things there.

Jon Clayton:

It's not all about the money.

Jon Clayton:

It's not all about that because there's going to be people that are working in

Jon Clayton:

a firm where they're not getting the opportunities to run projects or they

Jon Clayton:

don't have any of that flexibility.

Jon Clayton:

So if you're a small firm, uh, architecture practice looking

Jon Clayton:

to hire staff, but there's a couple of extra things there.

Jon Clayton:

You could really push with your advertising for that job to really

Jon Clayton:

be able to attract better candidates.

Jon Clayton:

I just wanted to ask actually about.

Jon Clayton:

Well, for sole practitioners, if there's any sole practitioners out there that

Jon Clayton:

are listening, and they're maybe thinking about hiring their first team member, um,

Jon Clayton:

have you got any specific recommendations for them for their first hire?

Stephen Drew:

Oh, only on based upon.

Stephen Drew:

What I did, because first of all, slight tangent, quick one, you don't

Stephen Drew:

really want to involve recruitment consultancies until you're much bigger

Stephen Drew:

because there's a, there's a charge, there's an introduction charge.

Stephen Drew:

It's a few thousand pounds.

Stephen Drew:

You don't need that as a small business.

Stephen Drew:

It's just going to bleed you dry.

Stephen Drew:

But recruitment, recruitment consultants business is really designed for large

Stephen Drew:

companies where basically they've got a project with 400 grand, 500 grand of fees.

Stephen Drew:

They haven't got time to find the six architects they need.

Stephen Drew:

And then they give me a chunk of it, small chunk of it.

Stephen Drew:

And that's what they go on for.

Stephen Drew:

So first of all, avoid recruitment consultants.

Stephen Drew:

Um, it's quite funny when that's one of my core services, but

Stephen Drew:

avoid us as long as possible.

Stephen Drew:

Um, you know, uh, apply what I would do is I advertised on LinkedIn.

Stephen Drew:

I think it's a great platform to do it right now, but also be smart about it.

Stephen Drew:

You know, if you're in, for example, a particular area and you want to hire a

Stephen Drew:

student, maybe build that bridge with the university that's basically going

Stephen Drew:

to, they, they can't, they love to, to bring you good students because.

Stephen Drew:

It's good for their employment ratings and uh, universities are Not an

Stephen Drew:

endangered species, but what I mean is they're getting more expensive, right?

Stephen Drew:

It's so they need to justify their value of employment.

Stephen Drew:

So you need to tap into universities.

Stephen Drew:

You need to be really smart Um, I would I would also there is stuff like The CIAT

Stephen Drew:

event, you can bump into people there.

Stephen Drew:

Generally we will get around that stuff in like the RABA also for

Stephen Drew:

architects have these little hubs.

Stephen Drew:

So I think that's really good way to do it.

Stephen Drew:

I found my first hire accidentally here by bumping into having a

Stephen Drew:

conversation down the line and then.

Stephen Drew:

Um, they, for whatever reason, and their employment paused at the place.

Stephen Drew:

And I said, why don't you work for me?

Stephen Drew:

No way would I have paid a recruiter?

Stephen Drew:

Absolutely madness.

Stephen Drew:

And then, you know, also then it was the next step from that one staff.

Stephen Drew:

We now got free staff because it was through internal referrals.

Stephen Drew:

So I said, listen, if you find someone, I'll pay you a grand of a half.

Stephen Drew:

Just did that.

Stephen Drew:

And so, okay, it cost me a grand and a half, but that's

Stephen Drew:

an employee perk for them.

Stephen Drew:

But also, I don't have to pay recruiters six grand or seven

Stephen Drew:

grand or whatever it is, you know?

Jon Clayton:

Well, that's good advice.

Jon Clayton:

We have, we've covered a lot of ground there.

Jon Clayton:

Do you want to, do you want to try and try and sum up the main points

Jon Clayton:

that we've run through there?

Jon Clayton:

So we started off, we talked about finding staff.

Jon Clayton:

Then we talked about hiring staff, we've talked about retaining staff

Jon Clayton:

and we've talked about, some of the common mistakes and we talked

Jon Clayton:

then just about, sole practitioners hiring their, the first team member.

Stephen Drew:

My

Jon Clayton:

you want to, do you want to try and do you want to try and sum up the

Jon Clayton:

conversation, do you want to add anything?

Stephen Drew:

struggles to summarize it.

Stephen Drew:

I think, I think that recruitment is messy.

Stephen Drew:

Okay.

Stephen Drew:

And it's, it's very bespoke in the business.

Stephen Drew:

There's lots of facets like are people available?

Stephen Drew:

Where are they?

Stephen Drew:

How competitive are you?

Stephen Drew:

How do you stick out?

Stephen Drew:

Do you have an essay in the market?

Stephen Drew:

Do you have nothing?

Stephen Drew:

Do you have no footprint?

Stephen Drew:

And, and like everything else, it's a challenge, but you have to remember.

Stephen Drew:

It's all about the company's brand and the final note I would say on that is

Stephen Drew:

that when you look at your website, when you think about your work as business

Stephen Drew:

owners, you always think, and I do it too, you're always thinking about chasing

Stephen Drew:

the fees, you're chasing that stuff.

Stephen Drew:

Yes, you want your website to look good.

Stephen Drew:

You want to attract business.

Stephen Drew:

You also just need to keep in the back of your mind.

Stephen Drew:

If you do have a careers page or an about us page or all that stuff, you're

Stephen Drew:

going to make your life easier as you expand in terms of recruitment.

Stephen Drew:

So I would just keep in the mind what I've said and think about it always

Stephen Drew:

from the other person's position.

Stephen Drew:

That's probably the biggest key and try to really work out what they're looking for.

Stephen Drew:

Try to work out if it's it, if it fits you and.

Stephen Drew:

You know, just don't jump into it.

Stephen Drew:

I mean, the one thing we haven't touched upon is, you know, hiring

Stephen Drew:

the wrong person can be catastrophic for many different reasons.

Stephen Drew:

And therefore it's good to interview people and don't

Stephen Drew:

rush the interview process.

Stephen Drew:

However, again, I think it's like interviewing the last, last

Stephen Drew:

thing I'd say on that point.

Stephen Drew:

I think it's good to start practicing interviews.

Stephen Drew:

Most people are not very good at doing interviews.

Stephen Drew:

Myself included.

Stephen Drew:

I have different styles.

Stephen Drew:

You have different things.

Stephen Drew:

You've got to practice this stuff.

Stephen Drew:

So I think as soon as you have a legitimate role, no point looking

Stephen Drew:

if you're not going to hire someone.

Stephen Drew:

But as soon as you have a legitimate role, start meeting people.

Stephen Drew:

Don't just hire the first person you see.

Stephen Drew:

It's like your house, isn't it?

Stephen Drew:

You're going to buy the first one.

Stephen Drew:

You're crazy.

Stephen Drew:

You need to have some comparison.

Stephen Drew:

So book people in the same day.

Stephen Drew:

Put the process out and just see what happens.

Stephen Drew:

And I don't know anything else I've forgotten.

Stephen Drew:

Just rewind the podcast.

Stephen Drew:

He's a modern world.

Stephen Drew:

Go backwards and listen to it.

Jon Clayton:

That's fine.

Jon Clayton:

Um, we, we covered a heck of a lot there.

Jon Clayton:

That I have one other question and it's nothing to do with

Jon Clayton:

finding or hiring staff.

Jon Clayton:

It's just a question that I like to ask.

Jon Clayton:

I, I love travel and discovering new places.

Jon Clayton:

So, um, do you want to tell me?

Jon Clayton:

Well, can you tell me one of your favorite places and what you love about it?

Jon Clayton:

This can be near or far, anywhere in the world, the end of your

Jon Clayton:

street, wherever you like.

Jon Clayton:

Is there anywhere that springs to mind as one of your favorite places in the world?

Stephen Drew:

Yeah, good question.

Stephen Drew:

One of the recent places which I was surprised myself

Stephen Drew:

enjoying so much was Berlin.

Stephen Drew:

It's such a cool city with people and it's totally different

Stephen Drew:

than I would have thought.

Stephen Drew:

I was very used to going to like, I don't know, um...

Stephen Drew:

Holiday kind of, uh,

Jon Clayton:

A beach holiday.

Stephen Drew:

Yeah.

Stephen Drew:

Beachy holidays for my parents and stuff.

Stephen Drew:

And actually as much as I love my parents, they're incredibly

Stephen Drew:

stressful to travel with, you know, just that, it's just there.

Stephen Drew:

And then what I discovered was actually going on holiday by yourself.

Stephen Drew:

It's just totally different than that.

Stephen Drew:

Yes.

Stephen Drew:

We like a family holiday.

Stephen Drew:

But there's different versions and I definitely am probably a

Stephen Drew:

workaholic still, but I'm a recovery workaholic and I would always make

Stephen Drew:

excuses John not to go and hold him.

Stephen Drew:

And, uh, and I did a, I had two or three day stopover in Berlin and

Stephen Drew:

why it's important to me is because I realized that I actually need to

Stephen Drew:

stop and have a break and enjoy.

Stephen Drew:

And, and in the end I stayed for something like an extra week.

Stephen Drew:

So I stayed for an extra week.

Stephen Drew:

I got to know all the locals, got to meet a few people.

Stephen Drew:

I did it on my own.

Stephen Drew:

Well, half of it on my own.

Stephen Drew:

And, uh, it was great.

Stephen Drew:

So that's why it's the special place for me.

Stephen Drew:

It's Berlin.

Stephen Drew:

Of all places in the world.

Stephen Drew:

My goodness.

Jon Clayton:

Berlin.

Jon Clayton:

Berlin is, uh, that is an amazing city.

Jon Clayton:

I've, I've been fortunate enough to visit a couple of times and

Jon Clayton:

yeah, absolutely worth a visit.

Jon Clayton:

Yeah.

Jon Clayton:

If you've never been before, um, that's been absolutely awesome.

Jon Clayton:

Thanks so much, Stephen.

Jon Clayton:

I really, really appreciate it.

Jon Clayton:

Where is the best place online for people to connect with

Stephen Drew:

Yeah, sure.

Stephen Drew:

I mean, I'm probably that screaming Welshman on LinkedIn.

Stephen Drew:

However, you can also find me on thearchitecturesofsocial.

Stephen Drew:

com or drop me a message on LinkedIn.

Stephen Drew:

If I don't reply, drop me another one.

Stephen Drew:

Don't be shy.

Stephen Drew:

And yeah, if you want to pick up the phone and be old school, that's

Stephen Drew:

probably the best way to get me.

Stephen Drew:

If you really want to get me, you ring me up, you know, and I'm all yours.

Jon Clayton:

Or for an old school phone call.

Stephen Drew:

You just can't beat it sometimes, can you, you

Jon Clayton:

Yeah.

Jon Clayton:

Right.

Jon Clayton:

Cheers, buddy.

Stephen Drew:

Take care.

Stephen Drew:

Thank you so much.

Jon Clayton:

Next time I'll be taking a trip down memory lane

Jon Clayton:

and sharing a lighthearted.

Jon Clayton:

Look at my Christmas past, present and future working in architecture.

Jon Clayton:

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Architecture Business Club.

Jon Clayton:

If you liked this episode, think other people might enjoy it.

Jon Clayton:

Or just want to show your support, then please visit podchaser.com.

Jon Clayton:

Search for Architecture Business Club and leave a glowing five-star review.

Jon Clayton:

It would mean so much to me and makes it easier for new

Jon Clayton:

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Jon Clayton:

If you just want to connect with me, you can do that on most social media

Jon Clayton:

platforms, just search for @mrjonclayton.

Jon Clayton:

The best place to connect with me online though is on LinkedIn.

Jon Clayton:

You can find a link to my profile in the show notes.

Jon Clayton:

Remember running your architecture business doesn't have to be hard.

Jon Clayton:

And you don't need to do it alone.

Jon Clayton:

This is Architecture Business Club.

Show artwork for Architecture Business Club - For Architects, Architectural Technologists, Surveyors & Designers

About the Podcast

Architecture Business Club - For Architects, Architectural Technologists, Surveyors & Designers
Helping busy architecture professionals build a better business with actionable tips and tactics.
Architecture Business Club is the weekly podcast to help solo and small firm architecture business owners build a profitable, future-proof architecture practice that both you and your clients love! It’s an inclusive place (for ALL architecture business owners). So whether you’re an Architect, Architectural Technologist, or Architectural Designer…If you sell architectural services and want to improve the way you do things…This is THE podcast for you.

I’m Jon Clayton, your show host, and a Chartered Architectural Technologist based in the UK. I’ve been in architecture for over two decades and running my own (solo) practice for 10 years+.

Each week you’ll hear from inspiring people from the world of architecture and business who share actionable tips to help you improve how you work, save time, or make more money. I’ll also share my own experiences running an architecture business in occasional solo episodes. We cover everything from mindset, money, business strategy, sales & marketing, productivity, systems & workflows, client experience, outsourcing, software, technology, and much more.

Episodes are kept as short as possible by cutting out the fluff and getting straight to the point. So expect interview episodes of around 30 minutes or less, and solo episodes of 5 to 15 minutes.

New episodes are released every Thursday at 6am GMT / 2am EST.

Welcome to the Club!

About your host

Profile picture for Jon Clayton

Jon Clayton

I’m Jon. A Chartered Architectural Technologist and the founder of Architecture Business Club. I've been working in architecture for over two decades and running my own architectural design business for over ten of those years. My mission is to help you build a better architecture business on your terms. So if you're a sole practitioner (or small practice) architect, architectural technologist, or architectural designer, I want to help YOU. I'm a Northerner but now live with my family in Norfolk, UK. Outside of work, I'm a guitar tottin', kayaking, movie trivia buff.